Rabbi Pape: Thank you, Rabbi Kalmanson. I would like to ask the next question to Rabbi Majeski. What’s been said until now about the identity of Moshiach and the era of Moshiach has applied for thousands of years. Why are you making such a big fuss about it today?

Rabbi Majeski: Although there are prophecies, and many sources in the Talmud and Midrash about Moshiach, and in none of these sources does it say the time when he’s going to come, it does describe what the world is going to look like when that time happens. These signs, based on what all the Torah leaders have been saying for the last 50 years (and even before the Holocaust), are being constantly fulfilled clearly before our eyes.

Most recently, these signs were shown in the Persian Gulf War crisis. The Rebbe said that the crisis that we saw taking place in the Persian Gulf was a fulfillment of what it says in the Yalkut Shimoni. It can be looked up in the Rebbe’s Seifer HaSichos of 5750, Parshas R’ei, page 640. What the Midrash was describing took place in the summer of 1990.

The Rebbe says this description was exactly what was happening at that time: There’s going to be conflict among nations, the whole world will be in panic, the Jewish people will be very frightened and will say, "Where shall we go?" Moshiach will say to them, "My children, don’t be afraid." Hashem will say through Moshiach, "Everything that I’ve done is only for you - higia z’man Geulas’chem!" (the time of your Redemption has arrived!).

The Rebbe said that this is the message for klal Yisroel now - that the time of your Redemption has arrived. Because this is something that is relevant now, this is what has created this commotion and excitement about the coming of Moshiach, and generated all the talk and discussion about this time.

Rabbi Pape: If I’m not mistaken, is that not the same as when Moshe Rabbeinu came to Egypt and made his announcement that he was there to redeem the Jewish people - "Pakad pakad’ti"? So the Rebbe said words that people have been waiting for thousands of years to hear!

Rabbi Majeski: True.

Rabbi Pape: Rabbi Kalmanson, we have to move on to the next very important subject of T’chias HaMeisim, the resurrection of the dead. This is closely related to the subject of Redemption, Geula, because it’s supposed to come afterwards. We praise G-d three times a day that He will be mechayeh meisim (resurrect the dead), but most people don’t have a clear, detailed idea of what this is. Could you please throw some light on the subject?

Rabbi Kalmanson: T’chias HaMeisim actually is one of the 13 Principals of Faith, and as you know, it comes right after the listing of emuna, the faith in the coming of Moshiach. There are three phases in T’chias HaMeisim. One is a t’chias ha’meisim that has taken place throughout the ages. There have been people such as Elisha, who performed t’chias ha’meisim with that little child people thought was dead. T’chias ha’meisim has taken place throughout the ages.There was Yechezkel with the atzamos he’yeveishos (dried bones), and that form of t’chias ha’meisim will continue before Moshiach’s coming and before Moshiach’s revelation, as well.

There is a second [aspect of] t’chias ha’meisim that is going to happen again before the Geula. The Gemara asks a question in Yoma: What’s going to happen when Moshiach has come, and he has to build the Beis HaMikdash before the final Redemption, so we can acknowledge him as being the Moshiach Vadai? How is he going to know the fine details of the Beis HaMikdash if he has never been there before?

The Gemara says that Moshe, Aharon and his children are going to be there. All the mefarshim (Torah commentaries) and the Rebbe speak about this at great length. This means that there will be t’chias ha’meisim at that point, prior to [the final] Redemption. All the tzaddikim - Moshe, Aharon and his children - and all the tzaddikim and nesiyei Yisroel (leaders of the Jewish people) of the previous generations will come back. Moshe, Aharon and his children will be of assistance to Moshiach to help him construct the Beis HaMikdash.

And then comes the final phase of t’chias ha’meisim, which is probably the one that most people have heard about. This is the t’chias ha’meisim after Redemption, whether it’s 20 or 40 years after Redemption. That is the t’chias ha’meisim for the general klal Yisroel.

Rabbi Pape: Rabbi Majeski, would you say that it’s against Torah to say that Moshiach could be a person who had passed on, and then he would come and redeem the Jewish people after having passed on? Is there any basis for that?

Rabbi Majeski: This is a perfect example of what we said before about people having preconceived ideas without looking and studying what it says in Torah. When this question comes up - "Is this according to Judaism?" - the answer is that the definition of Judaism is that which is written in Torah. Torah defines Judaism. We have to look to see if it says in Torah that Moshiach can be someone who passed on and then comes as Moshiach.

Let me go through a number of sources. First of all, we have the Gemara in Sanhedrin, the Talmud, page Tzaddik-Ches amud Beis, where the Gemara says: "Rav says that if Moshiach is among those who are living, then it’s Rabbeinu HaKodesh, and if he’s among those who passed on, then it’s Daniel."

We have again the Gemara, in Yerushalmi, Mesechta Brachos 2:4, where it says, "The rabbanim say, ‘If Moshiach is among the living, then his name is Dovid, and if he’s from among those who passed on, then it’s Dovid HaMelech himself.’" Midrash Rabba Eicha 1:51 says a similar thing: "If Moshiach is among the living, then his name is Dovid, and if he’s among those who passed on, his name is also Dovid."

The Abarbanel, in the seifer, Yeshuas Meshichoi, chapter 1, writes, "There should not be a question in your mind whether Moshiach could be someone who will come after passing, because it says this in the Gemara. The Gemara says there is that possibility: if he’s among those who passed on, then it’s Daniel Ish Chamudos."

We find also in the S’dei Chemed, who was a master of halacha, in his seifer Paas Sadeh, siman Ayin, "There are two possibilities as to how Moshiach can come. He can come as someone who is alive, and he can come as someone who has passed on, as it says in the Gemara in Sanhedrin."

We don’t have to go that far; we can look in the Chumash, the commentary of Ohr HaChaim, Parshas Balak 24:16, on the pasuk, "Ar’enu v’lo ata," where he says exactly the same thing - that Moshiach can come in two possible ways. One is from those who are living, and it could also be that he’ll be nisgaleh (revealed) from Shamayim. We can also find it in the Zohar: you can look it up in Parshas Balak, page 203, amud 2. The Zohar says that Moshiach is one who will be here, pass on, and then he’ll come back and take the Yidden out of Galus.

We also find this in the writings of the Arizal, in Shaar HaGilgulim 13 and 31, where he describes how Moshiach will be a human being born to a father and a mother, who will grow up to be a great tzaddik, a righteous person, and he will be given the task to take the Yidden out of Galus. After that, like Moshe Rabbeinu, who went up to the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights, and then he came back - that’s how Moshiach [will be]. After he will be here, and not everyone will accept him, he will disappear, then come back, take the Yidden out of Galus, and then everyone will accept him.

I want to conclude with the words of Rav Aharon Soloveichik, a’h, who was definitely a Torah giant of our generation. He wrote a letter that was printed in the Jewish Press, June 28, 1996. I’m going to read a few lines from his letter regarding this issue:

"Before the passing of the Rebbe, I included myself among those who believe that the Rebbe was worthy of being Moshiach. And I strongly believe that had we, particularly the Orthodox community, been united, we would have merited to see the complete Redemption. Insofar as the belief held by many in Lubavitch - based in part on similar statements made by the Rebbe himself concerning his predecessor, the Previous Rebbe, including prominent rabbanim and roshei yeshiva - that the Rebbe can still be Moshiach in light of the Gemara in Sanhedrin, the Zohar, Abarbanel, Kisvei Arizal, S’dei Chemed, and other sources, it cannot be dismissed as a belief that is outside the pale of Orthodoxy. Any cynical attempt at utilizing a legitimate disagreement of interpretation concerning this matter in order to besmirch and to damage the Lubavitch movement that was, and continues to be, at the forefront of those who are battling the missionaries, assimilation, and indifference, can only contribute to the regrettable discord that already plagues the Jewish community, and particularly the Torah community."

Rabbi Pape: Rabbi Majeski, thank you very much. There are some things in your comment that I would like to bring up again, but Rabbi Greenberg is with us. Rabbi Greenberg, I believe that you were involved with Rabbi Soloveichik in the writing of that letter, is that not true?

Rabbi Greenberg: Yes, that is true. And I’d like to give some of the background, because when I mention the fact that Rabbi Soloveichik signed this letter, people tell me they know from reliable sources that it’s not true, that he never wrote it, that it’s a forgery, and that they know from reliable sources that he was pressured into writing it. And then I hear that they know from reliable sources that he retracted it. Well, if he didn’t write it, he can’t retract it. I was there in the room together with two other rabbis who witnessed him sign the letter.

Let me give you the background on that letter. The letter was not written personally by Rabbi Soloveichik; he didn’t actually take a pen and write it. He was paralyzed, and it was very hard for him to write. But the letter was composed to contain the ideas that Rabbi Soloveichik said orally to one of the rabbis in Chicago, Rabbi Eli Turin. I helped put the letter together containing Rabbi Soloveichik’s ideas about this very subject. We brought the letter to Rabbi Soloveichik’s attention, and there was no coercion, G-d forbid.

Rabbi Soloveichik was a gadol b’Torah. One could not suspect that he would have been pressured into writing something that was heresy. If someone believes that, they can believe anything; and this is a great insult to a man of the stature of Rav Aharon Soloveichik, of blessed memory.

We had a very pleasant conversation. We spoke about the subject in a pleasant manner and we said to Rabbi Soloveichik, "This is the letter that we’d like to publicize to stop all this terrible discord. Would you sign it?" Rabbi Soloveichik went through the letter very carefully. It doesn’t take long to read. It took him probably a minute or two to read it carefully. He probably read it and reread it, and his words to us were, "Ich vil dos chasem’n (I will sign it)." And he proceeded to sign it.

As far as I know, the letter was published in the Jewish Press, and before the Jewish Press would publish it, they wanted to get a confirmation that he indeed signed the letter, and of course that was forthcoming, because they did publish it in the Jewish Press.

The so-called retraction came a week later when someone misrepresented what Rabbi Aharon Soloveichik signed. Rabbi Soloveichik did not sign that he said that the Rebbe is Moshiach. That was not what he signed. He signed that there are legitimate sources for that belief and nobody should be criticized or condemned for it. That was what he confirmed, in fact, in the next week’s Jewish Press.

Even according to those who say he never endorsed this belief - that is not true. He endorsed it, but perhaps not as his own personal belief. But he made it very clear that one should not condemn Lubavitch for it.

Let me ask you: If it is a heretical belief that the Rebbe is or could be Moshiach, as critics claim it to be, how could Rabbi Soloveichik say that we are not to condemn it?

For those who knew Rabbi Aharon Soloveichik - and I knew him well; I had many occasions to talk to him and to hear his very, very strong views about Jewish issues. He was forceful and strident in his opposition to the Israeli government giving up territory for peace, the false peace agreement. He was strident in his support for many religious issues that were not popular. Yet concerning the issue of Moshiach he said one should not criticize [Lubavitch].

Obviously, he’s saying this is a legitimate issue of interpretation and that there’s nothing wrong with this belief. Anyone who continues to fight it and condemn it is going directly against a gadol b’Torah, Rabbi Aharon Soloveichik.

Rabbi Pape: Thank you, Rabbi Greenberg. Rabbi Majeski, in some of the comments that you made, you seemed to be saying that the process of Redemption could be started by Moshiach, and then he will disappear and then come back. In previous weeks it was said that this idea goes against Jewish belief. Is there any foundation for the claim that the idea does go against Jewish belief? Are there sources to the contrary?

Rabbi Majeski: Again, to reiterate: The definition of Jewish belief is that which is written in Torah. That defines Jewish belief. This possibility - that Moshiach comes, and after his coming and revelation there’s an interruption, and then he completes the process - this is found in a number of places in Torah. Let me just mention a few. One is Midrash Rabba Shir HaShirim 2:22, on the pasuk "Domeh dodi l’tzvi." And the Midrash says, just like a deer is revealed, and hidden, and again hidden. I guess it means that when it runs, it runs between the trees - you see it and then you don’t see it. That’s what happened with Moshe Rabbeinu in Egypt. He came, and then he was concealed for a few months - there are different opinions how many months - and then he was revealed again and took the Jews out of Mitzrayim. The Midrash concludes the same thing will be with Moshiach: He will be revealed, then he will be hidden, and then he will be revealed again. In fact, the Midrash says that when he will be hidden, it will be a very difficult time. There will be people who will stop believing in him because of that, and that ultimately he will come.

This message is also in Rashi, in Daniel 12:12. The pasuk says, "Ashrei ha’m’chakim" (fortunate are those who will wait for Moshiach). Rashi says this is not just talking about people in general who wait for Moshiach. [Rather,] fortunate are those who will wait for Moshiach after he is revealed, and then he will be hidden, and then revealed again. In that in-between time: fortunate are those who persevere in their emuna.

In fact, Rashi says this is brought down in the davening, in the siddur, the "Yotzer" for Parshas HaChodesh. Anyone can look it up. It’s in the Rav Yaakov Emden Siddur. It says the same thing: Moshiach will come, be revealed, then he’ll be hidden, and revealed again.

It’s also found in this week’s parsha, Parshas Shmos. Rabbeinu Bechaye, at the end of the parsha, says, "Moshe Rabbeinu came, then he was hidden, and then he came back to take the Yidden out of Mitzrayim." And he writes that the same will be with Moshiach, as it says, "Kimei tzeis’cha m’Eretz Mitzrayim ar’enu niflaos." This redemption will be similar to the redemption in the times of Mitzrayim.

The Chasam Sofer, one of the greatest masters of halacha in our recent generations, also wrote in his seifer, Toras Moshe, on this parsha, Shmos. At the end of the parsha, he says that the fact that Moshe was gone for six months was a very big test. The same will be b’yimei Moshiach Tzidkeinu, yinelam achar nisgaleh (in the days of Moshiach Tzidkeinu, he will be concealed after he is revealed), and we will need special assistance from Hashem to stand up to this test. As mentioned before, the Arizal in Seifer Shaar HaGilgulim also says the same thing - that he’ll come, and like Moshe Rabbeinu, he will disappear, go away, we won’t have him. Then he’ll come back and take all the Yidden out of Galus.

Rabbi Kalmanson: Actually, the Rizhiner, who lived at the time of the Tzemach Tzedek (the third Lubavitcher Rebbe), asked how can we say "ein ben Dovid ba ela b’hesech ha’daas"? How can Moshiach only come when people stop thinking about him? In essence, Jews must yearn and think about him and say every day, "achakeh lo b’chol yom sh’yavo" (I await his coming every day). How can it be that he will come when people will not be thinking about him?

The Rizhiner said precisely what Rabbi Majeski just mentioned. There will come a time that this individual will have functioned. Then we’ll come into a state of mind in which nobody will be able to believe that this is going to happen again. Whatever happens to him, he is not going to be around for anyone to believe. Then and only then is the hesech ha’daas that will bring forth Moshiach.

Rabbi Pape: Rabbi Kalmanson, I want to bring up a very touchy subject. It was claimed on this program a few weeks ago that for thousands of years Jews have had self-sacrifice to reject Christianity because the leader of that religion died. Could you please explain how this fits into our discussion tonight?

Rabbi Kalmanson: First of all, the rejection of Yeshu HaNotzri, as the Rambam calls him, had nothing to do with his death, or his being killed, or the likes thereof. Everyone in those times, including the non-Jews of the time, knew that Jewish rejection of him was precisely because he went against Torah and mitzvos, because he abolished Torah and mitzvos. There was nothing about him to indicate that he was a representative of the concept of a Moshiach. This has nothing to do with the fact that he died.

He definitely was misrepresenting [Torah], and definitely had nothing to do with somebody that could have [been Moshiach, but was disqualified] because he died. That’s for sure.

Rabbi Greenberg: If you look at the Rambam that Rabbi Kalmanson just quoted, the Rambam talks about two different individuals. One was Yeshu, and one was Bar Kochva. With regard to Yeshu it says clearly he couldn’t have been Moshiach because he stood up against the ideals of Torah. That is what invalidates someone. With regard to Bar Kochva, it says [he wasn’t Moshiach] because he was murdered. That’s the reason he was not Moshiach. The Rambam could have very well said the same thing about both. But it’s obvious that the fact that somebody dies doesn’t in and of itself prove anything, if the ideals that he stands for are the ideals that are consistent with Moshiach.

Rabbi Pape: Rabbi Greenberg, I’m glad you brought that up. You mentioned Bar Kochva, and the Rambam says that since he was killed, we know that he was not Moshiach. Doesn’t this prove that if an individual passes away, he cannot be Moshiach?

Rabbi Greenberg: There are many points that have to be made, but I think the most obvious is that the Rambam was very careful in the terminology that he used. He used the word "killed." If someone who was thought of to be Moshiach is killed, then that proves that he is not Moshiach.

What is the Rambam saying about Bar Kochva? Bar Kochva was a leader of the Jewish community right after the destruction of the Temple a few decades later, who started a rebellion against the Romans. Because he was successful in his initial battles, Rabbi Akiva, the leading sage, and many other sages, considered him to be Moshiach, until they realized that he wasn’t after he was killed.

What was his claim to be Moshiach? Think about what the Jewish people needed in that time. They were persecuted by the Romans. The Romans destroyed the Temple. They did not let the Jews live as Jews. Here was a man who stood up against the Romans and defeated them, one battle after another. His credentials, if you wish, to declare himself as Moshiach existed because he was fighting the Romans successfully. As soon as he failed miserably in defeating the Romans because he was killed by them, and they clamped down more ruthlessly on the Jewish community, that proved that he wasn’t Moshiach.

The fact that somebody is considered to be Moshiach and he passes on physically, or it appears he passes on - he’s in a state of concealment - that doesn’t disprove anything, because what he has done to make himself worthy of being Moshiach continues to exist.

There’s nothing wrong with believing that that person could come back and complete the task to be Moshiach even if there were no sources to that effect. The fact that there are sources only strengthens the argument that this is precisely the scenario that has always been foreseen for Moshiach. Moshiach will come, he will start a revolution, a spiritual revolution, a Jewish revolution, then he’ll be concealed, and then he’ll come back to finish the task.

Let me ask you: If it is a heretical belief that the Rebbe is or could be Moshiach, as critics claim it to be, how could Rabbi Soloveichik say that we are not to condemn it?

The Midrash says that when he will be hidden, it will be a very difficult time. There will be people who will stop believing in him because of that, and that ultimately he will come.

The rejection of Yeshu HaNotzri had nothing to do with his being killed. Everyone in those times knew that Jewish rejection of him was precisely because he abolished Torah and mitzvos.