Sharon
Must Make Immediate Changes
Interview by Shai Gefen
Benny
Katzover, resident of Alon Moreh and one of the founders of Gush Emunim, who
spent hours upon hours with Sharon in the movement to settle Yesha, in his first
interview after the elections, speaks about his expectations of the new Prime
Minister. Throughout the interview he expresses hope on the one hand and doubts
on the other. In a special interview with Beis Moshiach, Katzover speaks about
the problems of the settlers due to the war these last five months, the needs of
the settlers, and the way to win this war.
BIO
Benny Katzover’s involvement with settling Yesha began when he was a
student. On Chol HaMoed Pesach 5720 he joined the settlers of Chevron in the
Park Hotel. From there he settled in the government military building.
In
5734 he was the leader and one of the initiators of the Alon Moreh nucleus and
one of the founders of Gush Emunim. Katzover led the settler movement’s great
battles in the period of its establishment. After the Yom Kippur War, he blazed
the path to the settling of Shomron.
Benny
Katzover is one of the founders of many settlements in Shomron, as well as Alon
Moreh, where he lives. For over 13 years, from 5740 to 5753, he served as
council leader of the Shomron.
In
his public roles, Katzover had a warm relationship with the Rebbe MH"M and
received the Rebbe’s brachos. When he was injured in a car accident in 5748,
the Rebbe continuously asked about him and conveyed his blessings through many
people. Katzover credits his recovery to the Rebbe’s brachos. Today Katzover
continues his work building and expanding the settlements in Yesha.
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Mr.
Katzover, how do you see the situation at present? Over five months have passed
since the outbreak of Intifada El Aksa, and the situation just seems to be
getting worse.
Reality
has yet to set in for some of our people. They still don’t understand that the
more Israel demonstrates weakness in the form of concessions to the Arabs, the
more we are broken in two ways – in regard to morality and in regard to
security. Unfortunately, segments of Israeli society still don’t get it.
You
see how they continue to play with opening and closing the blockade, opening and
closing the airport. They display weakness, to put it mildly, which enables the
Arabs to feel they can continue with their acts of terror. The bottom line is
that nothing really happens to the Arabs; they don’t lose out by perpetrating
acts of terror. On the contrary, the world is so very concerned about the
"unfortunate Arab victims," forgetting that they brought their
troubles on themselves. Look at the results.
What
are the results?
The
Arabs began using missiles against our tanks, as well as grenade launchers.
These are weapons we enabled them to smuggle into the area under their
jurisdiction. Arafat smuggles arms in his Mercedes and in his weekly flights
that ultimately are used against us.
People
speak of the Lebanon-izing of the area. What do you think?
The
problem is that we have been allowing them to wage this war of attrition against
us, unlike Lebanon, where we called most of the shots. It’s similar to Lebanon
in that Israel allows them to drag us into not reacting – into a sort of
status quo – a situation in which we always lose.
The
Palestinian Authority allows itself to make a mockery of its citizens, while we
can’t.
Actually,
lately there has been talk about a collapse of the Authority, about the utter
anarchy there, about rising unemployment and a faltering economy. Perhaps Israel
is actually taking steps to dismantle it?
I
don’t think it’s a planned initiative on Israel’s part. The most serious
blow to the Arab sector is that Jews are not employing them. This leads to fewer
"greenbacks" in the area of the Authority’s jurisdiction.
Additionally, Israel is withholding money from them for what they owe us for
electricity and water. They are allowed not to pay, but the Israelis must
pay.
These
are the two main elements that affect the Authority economically. On the other
hand, the blockade that we keep opening and closing is worthless.
Have
you noticed any differences due to the change in government and Ariel Sharon’s
rise to power?
Almost
none. Here and there the I.D.F. is a bit more independent. We feel that they’re
not as restricted.
In
what ways?
They’ve
renewed retaliation against terrorists.
Is
that what is known as "political liquidation?"
I
don’t think that’s the right term. These are basic acts of war against
murderers. The I.D.F. goes into Arab villages more frequently and makes arrests,
but it’s minimal. We certainly have hope with Sharon, but at the same time we
have grave concerns.
What
are your expectations from a Sharon government as soon as it is established?
We
expect a complete change in strategy. We don’t want any more ridiculous Oslo
Accords, which were built on the assumption that the Arabs would no longer
engage in terror and violence. Not only have they continued on this path, but it
has become their strategy. Therefore, there is no justification at all for what
is called the Palestinian Authority. I expect that Sharon, as a man who I know
understands good and well what is going on here, will gradually dismantle the
P.A., the very monstrous creation which endangers our existence here.
Are
you suggesting something that may not be practical?
I’m
talking about a gradual dismantling, to begin doing it in stages: to capture
areas from where they shoot and take it back. Also, to wage all-out war against
the incitement in their media. To go back to those areas from which we were
chased out, like Kever Yosef and the Shalom al Yisroel Shul in Yericho. Also to
slowly chip away at the P.A.’s standing. This has to be our strategy. To use
all means at our disposal to make the P.A. a thing of the past.
What
else?
To
continue attacking the leaders until we reach Arafat himself. Politically, we
can’t get to Arafat at first. But as long as they continue shooting, they’ll
give us opportunities to get to him, and I hope we do this courageously before
the whole world, explaining that we will not tolerate attacks on Jews in a
sovereign state, especially when we supplied them – in our innocence – for I
don’t want to say in our stupidity, with all the means to fight us. We allowed
them to build cities of refuge and exit bases and amass weapons, and under the
circumstances, Israel must stop the negative use of all these resources.
I
hope this will be Sharon’s strategy, but I am very concerned that the
situation will be just the opposite, and I am certainly preparing myself for
other eventualities.
Do
you think Sharon wants the Nobel Peace prize?
I
simply don’t know. Sharon has the potential to present himself as a proud Jew,
yet he also has the potential to undermine everything for the sake of a second
Nobel Prize.
Considering
his most recent moves, which way do you think he leans?
If
the Arabs would be quiet, I would be even more skeptical of Sharon. Since I don’t
think they will be, they might ignite the Jewish flame in Sharon’s heart. I
don’t think Sharon can take more than one or two attempts on their part to use
us as a doormat.
Sharon
initiated the founding of many settlements in Yesha. You worked alongside him
for years.
Yesha,
which consists of 140 settlements and 200,000 Jews, is to Sharon’s credit in
large measure. The association of Sharon and Gush Emunim is a heavenly
association, which led to the building of this incredible settling of the land.
Are
you afraid that the man who established it will be the man who destroys part of
it?
In
light of past experience, I cannot be certain. I think he will make a great
effort to prevent the uprooting of any settlement. The Left tries to cover up
the destruction of settlements by calling it kinus yishuvim, a military
term in which a number of bases are consolidated. That is how Barak on the eve
of the elections tried to manipulate public opinion regarding uprooting isolated
settlements.
The
word obfuscates the true intentions, which are to take a Jew and uproot him from
his house after he has lived there for twenty or thirty years! I’d like to see
one Jewish leader suggest that this be done to one Arab settlement. How would
the Israeli media react to that? Yet for Jews it’s considered legitimate, as
though it’s obvious. They speak about isolated political settlements, and
instead of expressing admiration for the people living there for being willing
to live on the front, they say these settlements should be the first to go. What
is meant by an isolated place? These are the toughest places, the ones
preventing the terrorists from entering the center of the country!
Why
are you speaking of Barak, who lost the elections?
The
media tries to draw Sharon into the whirlwind. It wants to establish the same
norms for Sharon’s staff. There’s no question that it will be harder for
them now to do so, since Sharon is someone who knows how to appreciate the value
of each settlement, as well as the basic value of holding on to the land.
I
must say that twenty years ago, Sharon explained to us how to prepare ourselves
on the ground, since the day would come when Yesha would revert back to the era
of the War of Independence... Sharon always told us to hold on to the land as
strongly as possible, and where to establish settlements. So I really hope that
Sharon, who rose to power with a clear majority, won’t make the same mistakes.
What
connection did you have with Sharon?
My
first connection with him began after he left the army. Sharon, to our surprise,
accepted us warmly and offered his help in everything the settlement movement
needed. He asked us not to stop bothering him. I was with my friend, Menachem
Felix, at the time that we were the young bloods of the nucleus in Alon Moreh.
We were afraid that Sharon would throw us down the steps, but he definitely
greeted us warmly, and that’s when Sharon began his relationship with what was
called the leadership of Gush Emunim, a connection that proved to be quite
fruitful.
When
the Jewish settlements began to establish themselves, Arik visited dozens, even
hundreds of times. He served as agricultural minister and chairman of the
ministers’ committee for settlements at the time. He led, and made sure to
guide and make suggestions, and of course acted. He planned the establishment of
the settlements based on his fears for the future – an Arab attack. He spoke
openly with us, perhaps because he knew us for so long.
But
then there was a long period of time when there was a split between the settlers
and Sharon. Did something go wrong in more recent years?
I
don’t know about a split, but there were serious disagreements. I personally
spent time with him on the farm once or twice a week, during the Yamit period,
too. During the period of the Wye Agreement, there was great tension with him
after he was the one who legitimized Wye under Bibi’s government. That’s
where the split feelings about Sharon come from. On the one hand, there’s
great hope since Sharon is a proud Jew. But on the other hand, there’s fear in
light of past experience, especially based on the new one-sided plans publicized
in his name.
Are
you referring to plans publicized by General Ben in HaAretz?
I’m
referring to plans we knew about even before that. We asked some people close to
us to verify what we heard, so we knew something was doing. In Sharon’s plans,
he intends on transforming all of Area B to Area A, i.e., to be under full
Palestinian authority, which will enable them to attack all of Israel in a way
incomparably worse than today. Today they have an exit base near the center of
the country, thanks to Kalkilia. If Sharon’s plans are implemented, the entire
line will be open to them. Gilo is under fire today from Beit Jala in the south,
but with the implementation of these plans, all of northern Jerusalem will be
under fire.
Perhaps
Sharon is only presenting this plan to show that he, too, has a plan.
I
know Sharon and I know that he always likes having a plan to show the other
side. He’s done that in the past and he’s doing it now too, in order to
pressure the other side. Maybe the idea is to hope that the other side doesn’t
act accordingly.
There
is no one who knows the area better than Sharon. There’s definitely fear that
as soon as there’s a plan, it won’t be possible to know how it will all work
out.
There’s
talk of a unity government. What do you think about it from the security
perspective?
A
national unity government is justified for only one reason. Half a year ago,
Barak gave orders to the army to prepare for war – and there is information
that as a result of the present situation, there will be war. That being a
given, there’s logic to having a national unity government. But if that doesn’t
happen, a national unity government will halt anything associated with settling
Yesha, and will impose a Leftist atmosphere on the Israeli Right.
Perhaps
with the collapse of the Labor party after the Right won by so much, the people
have actually woken up to reality, and a unity government would be helpful?
That
would definitely be the case if it were possible to do things differently
politically than had been done before. What will be absurd is – and this is
what I’m afraid of – that despite these facts, and although the people
unequivocally said they don’t want a road that leads to tragedy, the Leftist
spirit will continue to reign and will greatly influence the process. This is a
very serious concern of mine and I don’t hide it.
How
do you see the people’s voting as a reflection of the current government’s
policies?
There
were two elements at work here. First of all the people know this road leads to
tragedy. Secondly, that was Barak’s pride, that no human being could possibly
beat him. Maybe it’s direct elections that cause people to lose all sense of
proportion, that led Barak and Netanyahu to cut ties with all their friends by
making rash decisions.
Would
you tell Sharon to watch out and not follow in the path of Barak, despite the
huge margin by which he won?
I
would tell him more. I would say, "If you conduct yourself as a proud Jew,
you will succeed. But if, G-d forbid, you go against the interests of the Jewish
people, you will fall. From Heaven they will make you fall, just like all the
previous leaders who fell, one after the other, after they harmed Eretz Yisroel.
Not only did they fall, but the amount of time their government lasted got
shorter and shorter, while the rate of turnover became faster and faster."
What
should Sharon do in order not to fall?
The
political strategy must be exactly the opposite. Sharon must use this
opportunity to change the map in the areas where the Arabs are trying to uproot
us. The only way to avert their plans is by hundreds of thousands of Jews
streaming there. All talk about freezing settlements and not allowing new
settlements is very painful. There’s no question that this is the way to get
us out of trouble. If Sharon won’t establish new settlements, we didn’t
accomplish anything. One day a Leftist government may be in power and may
continue the process of destruction.
You
read and hear about the ground rules of the unity government. Are you satisfied?
I’ve
learned from experience that ground rules are not determinant. You can do
anything under the ground rules, both positive and negative. The only thing that
will determine it for me is what actually takes place. The actions on the ground
will be Sharontrue test, and my greatest fear about a unity government is that
it will stop Sharon from fortifying Jewish settlement in Yesha.
Won’t
it be enough if Sharon stops the concessions and doesn’t continue them?
Life
goes on and sooner or later a Leftist government will be in power. If Sharon
doesn’t implement immediate changes and won’t allow the settlements to
develop in Yesha, there will be a withdrawal. The demands for the formation of a
Palestinian state will only continue, and the world will interpret our lack of
action in Yesha as acknowledgment that this land doesn’t belong to us, and the
pressure to get out of Yesha will start again. Even from an educational
standpoint, the younger generation will understand it this way.
I
have expectations of Sharon, as I said earlier, for two reasons: for his Jewish
pride and because of the evil of the gentiles, who will push him to change the
situation.
We
heard the Chief of Staff speak at a meeting of the foreign policy and security
committee very strongly against the Palestinians, defining the situation as
all-out war. He also spoke against uprooting settlements. Perhaps there is a
change in the atmosphere after all?
I
also heard the commanders speaking like this. There’s no question that the
Israeli army is not removed from politics and it senses the political change,
which is why they are speaking more forcefully. I say let the I.D.F. win, but at
the same time, let the government be more Jewish. If the army wins, but the
government doesn’t do what it needs to do, we didn’t accomplish anything.
What’s
happening in Yesha? It’s been five months of war, thousands of shooting
incidents, explosives, bombs. How are you dealing with all this?
The
situation is very tense. The ongoing situation hasn’t gotten any easier, but
people are hanging in there. This in itself arouses great admiration for the
settlers. Today, any traveling you do is a story in itself. You constantly
wonder when they’ll shoot at you or whether you’re about to blow up. But
still, not only do people continue to reside there, they continue to travel and
live.
Are
settlers leaving?
Hardly
any. I’m not surprised by this, though. The leaders and settlers of the
settlements seek all means by which to strengthen themselves from within, and it
helps.
But
there are reports about the purchase of armored vehicles and the like.
We
do everything to protect ourselves, as well as attack. We demonstrate at the
junctions and block Arab traffic after every incident. In this complicated
situation, we are not paralyzed, and that’s what’s most important.
How
long can you continue living like this?
The
people living in the Jordan Valley were attacked by both the Syrians and the
Jordanians, and they have held out for over two years. It really depends on how
much the nation is behind us.
Do
you feel more public support these days?
I’m
not one of those who used to think everybody was against us, but I definitely
feel a greater sympathy. I meet people from the Left who say that they’ve
gotten to know us and now they understand that if we wouldn’t be there, it
would all explode in their face. There is definitely an awakening among broad
segments of the nation.
Could
it be that you are not giving enough publicity to the terrible situation in
which you live?
That
could be our weakness, and we have to do more, but you have to understand that
in recent years there has been a weakening in education, especially after
Netanyahu joined the Left when he said there was no choice about giving away
land. Netanyahu said that it’s impossible to hold on to all of Yesha. I’m
not even talking about his actually giving away Chevron, and the Wye Accords. He
caused that part of the nation, which was more traditional, to weaken.
I
expect Sharon to say that there is no such thing as a country conceding its
homeland. Moreover, the Jewish nation cannot concede a gift from G-d. Likewise,
there is no nation willing to abandon the gravesite of one of its national
fathers. Words such as these will strengthen and deepen the identity of the
younger generation with its ancient heritage.
Deputy
Chief of Staff Bogy Yaalon spoke two weeks ago against abandoning Kever Yosef.
He’s
someone who clarified the entire situation and spoke about the danger to the
Jewish people. I recall only one other commander of his rank who spoke so
boldly, and that is Major General Nechemia Tamri, z’l. Don’t err –
Yaalon is not from the Right, but his Jewish heart beats within him. He
understands that if the Jewish nation flees, it doesn’t stand a chance against
the enemy.
What
do you think Sharon’s first test is?
Security.
Life. He must clarify to the other side that any attempt to murder Jews will
cost them dearly. What they’ve done until now is not considered a price. Even
their dead are not considered a price. Arabs care about land. Our policy should
be that the land from which Jews are attacked should be taken away from the
Arabs. This is an example of something that will hurt them and cause them to
think twice before any shooting.
As
I said, the strategy has to be to dismantle the P.A. and to rule over more and
more of Area A. Every piece of land we gave them helps them establish terror.
Now we have to work on expanding the settlements and adding to the settlements
in Yesha. We must establish settlements along the road, since settlements are,
naturally, security. The politicians must change their thinking, and instead of
thinking of it as conquered territory, think about it as part of Eretz Yisroel.
I hope that Sharon will do things so that we can build and expand settlements.
How
do you see the situation among the people? Are they confused? In despair?
I
wouldn’t call it despair, but there is great confusion. People don’t know
where they’re going. They are just beginning to get the idea of Jewishness,
and are putting less trust in democracy, with all its political trickery. If you
look closely, you see Jewish pride rising up more and more above the surface,
and the recent elections proved that.
Altogether,
I think that more and more Jews are beginning to search for their roots, and
this is after many years of telling us that there are good Arabs, who are the
Israeli Arabs. Suddenly people are beginning to catch on that there are Jews,
and there are Arabs and there is no difference between an Arab from Nazareth and
an Arab from Sh’chem. It’s becoming more clear, and this is the most central
point that offers a lot of hope.
What
should we be doing now?
One
main thing – strive to change the atmosphere in the street in a positive
direction. Instead of withdrawals and destruction and building up the enemy, we
must create an atmosphere of building and go in a completely different
direction. I anticipate a large number of Jews moving to Yesha, and whoever can’t,
should come visit. Now is the time to bring about the change, because who knows
what will be in the months to come.
What
do you have to say about the numbers of settlers?
It’s
an incredible miracle, considering what’s going on. In the ‘80’s, when
they spoke about 100,000 settlers, the media created a tumult, and many saw that
as nothing more than a fantasy. Today there are 200,000 people.
Unfortunately,
in recent years, all the governments, including those of the Right, were
involved in disrupting the settlement movement. There’s no question that
Sharon’s era in the ‘80’s was a good one. Even Shamir at the end of his
reign prevented the establishment of new settlements, along with Defense
Minister Moshe Arens. Sharon told us then that most of the government ministers
didn’t understand the importance of building up the settlements. I hope that
in his new position he will help us build and expand throughout Yesha.
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